Another Wine Blog - Latest Comments in Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

WineWonkette — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 16:32:00 -0000

That's sometimes the thing that people forget. It's the consumer who often determines what is popular -- consider the White Zin fad back in the 80s-90s. Bloggers tend to be more consumer fans -- we're like word of mouth marketing -- which is often considered one of the most effective forms of "advertising."

Thaks for stopping by!

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

liveslow — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 13:50:33 -0000

It's the average ignorant person's taste and opinion that moves markets--markets that exist so that an expert can write about them!

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Houstonwino — Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:13:20 -0000

When direct questions are ignored, and a defense is mounted based upon generalities, charges that I am putting words in your mouth ring rather hollow. Particularly when, by your own admission, you have not even bothered to see if the accusations you are defending are true or not.

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

WineWonkette — Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:25:46 -0000

I think Steve has probably learned a very valuable lesson judging by an interview I saw on Sacre Blue http://sacrebleuwine.com/20...

I'm looking forward to writing about more "delightful" visits to wineries! In the words of @HoustonWino, (aka Joe) "damn I like wine!"

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Houstonwino — Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:18:10 -0000

So, you are okay with misquoting and lack of attribution as long as the culprit is someone that you admire?

Just a suggestion, Tom...turn the hubris dial down a bit. Coming off as a sycophant was bad enough, no need to compound that with bluster and arrogance.

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Houstonwino — Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:05:18 -0000

You went right to the heart of the issue, Tish. This isn't about the MSM or about some of the valid points that Steve Heimoff raised. It is about accuracy and fairness. Steve is a very good writer, and from everything I can tell, a pretty good guy. No matter how much he and his sycophantic defender wish it to be so, those things do not excuse him from journalistic standards. In fact, his position and standing would suggest that he should be setting those standards, not ignoring them to show that others have no standards.

I agree with a lot of what Strappo has to say, but this isn't the usual attack on the MSM by a blogger. A very real line was crossed.

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Tish — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 20:01:56 -0000

Very wise take. Wine under the bridge now. Looking forward, I only hope that Steve -- and all writers -- apply the same journalistic standards of fairness in reporting to their blog posts as they would print pieces. That's what caused the problem here, not the simple idea that some blogs are lame and forgettable. We all knew/know that. It's sad when a decent post from an earnest blogger gets hung out to dry just so Steve Heimoff can make that point. Maybe next time he'll use a better example, and more level-headed treatment.

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

strappo — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 17:57:36 -0000

OK, I'm reading all this stuff and wonder why everybody's so red-hot about Steve's comments. (NB: I hardly ever read his blog -- or anyone's anymore -- and I don't read WE either. I think it's boring.)

Telescoping a couple of salient points, "inadvertently" shilling for wineries and spitting out their press releases and describing everything as "delightful", etc., strikes me as a reasonable criticism of a lot of wine-blog writing. (Professionals use a somewhat more detached vocabulary with which to spread the buttah.)

People, come on, do the words RODNEY STRONG ring a bell? That affair exposed the wannabe credulity of a lot of people, including not a few who've won Wark's web awards thingie. I got defriended by some for coming down hard on them for their greed and naiveté.

My cursory reading of some blogs of late is that not a lot has been learnt from that fiasco. I can tell you that when I look back on my early (2005-06) posts on mondosapore, I'm embarrassed by my utter lack of discrimination and probity. So in my case at least -- and in this I do not think I'm so damned unique -- Steve H correctly hit a few nerves.

I guess it's only human nature to dish it out and not be able to take it. All the grousing about the MSM wine media is overdone but enjoyable until it gets monotonous. Isn't it only human when "they" (Steve H, RP, others) take a couple of swings back? So what? If they're irrelevant, why bother go into rant mode over their swipes at bloggers? Are they really so past it? Then fuck em and forget em.

Not that any of us really believes that.

Look, if you wanna play with the big boys, this is what happens. It's about as nasty as politics. Maybe not as vicious as, say, an English Department faculty meeting. But bitching and going into high dudgeon isn't going to grab anyone's respect.

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

WineWonkette — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 17:11:01 -0000

Now come on Joe, can't you just be a good little blogger and follow the talking points? Don't point out any facts that might be considered inconvenient to anyone with the pass code to the gate! ;)

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Houstonwino — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:43:02 -0000

Tom, you aren't even addressing the few points made to you. Even if his points hadn't been addressed multiple times throughout this post and subsequent comments, isn't it a bit disingenuous of you to try to deflect with that bit of fluff?

Have you seen a public apology to, or even a mea culpa about, misquoting some of your fellow bloggers from Steve? I certainly have not. And what do you mean "if he misquoted his example?" You didn't bother to check before you mounted your brilliant white horse and charged in to defend Heimoff?

Steve is indeed knowledgable and a good writer. Check the first sentence of the post. That was conceded already. Your point? Besides "Steve is a better writer than me, and I'm better than you, so STFU." That one won't fly.

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Houstonwino — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:14:45 -0000

Thanks for stopping by L. Couldn't agree more.

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Mon, 03 Aug 2009 16:34:38 -0000

As a relative newcomer to the wine blogging world, I find it somewhat entertaining that members of the traditional wine media are so threatened by the wine blogosphere. I'm no wine expert, certainly, but friends and family have been coming to me for years for recommendations, and it was actually one of those very friends that talked me into starting my blog in the first place. I've always acknowledged that my readers might not agree with my opinions, and I invite them to comment. I don't know that I've ever called a trip to a winery "delightful," but if that's how I feel about it, then that's what I'll say. If you disagree or have had a different experience, then let me (and my readers) know! That's what blogging is all about - creating a community - and that's what the traditional wine media is missing.

Cheers, and keep the insightful (and delightful) entries coming!

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

1WineDude — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 16:57:39 -0000

Thanks for the kind words about the blog!

I understand that some people in 'wine power' attacking blogging has the potential to set us back, because their words will be some of the first that their readers will see about blogging coming from (presumably) experienced wine pros.

In that respect, we do have a fight. I've written my own pieces against such negative blogging attacks from dia Blue and Parker. Though I'm starting to agree more with Alder in terms of his advice on how we can fight back - prove them wrong with every post.

I guess I personally don't see Steve H. in the same light as those guys. To his point, he is blogging so he's not exactly setting an example for WE readers that blogging isn't worthwhile as a whole. As someone that is involved in traditional media, he has an opportunity to show blogging in a positive light, which he does do, I think (though it's not always interpreted as such), unlike ADB and Parker...

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Houstonwino — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 16:46:11 -0000

Sage advice there, Fonzie...sage advice. :)

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Catie McIntyreWalker — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 16:28:13 -0000

Come on Heimoff! Come on over to the "dark side" and play with us cool kids. You know you wanna. Stick it to the "man" and don't let them keep you down.
;-)

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Houstonwino — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 16:10:26 -0000

Hey Joe,

I can't say that I disagree with you, but I have to admit that I am completely fed up with all of these self-appointed, self-serving gatekeepers. Steve's latest attack was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back for me.

It seems like we are always having to fight the very same battles with the very same players time and again. It seems that we have two choices, as the debate never changes anything, we can take their marginalizing us or we can hit back. I won't be marginalized, and I won't be put in my place. Especially given that the folks who are always putting us down are doing so to protect their business interests while pretending to be "investigative bloggers" trying to protect the wine drinking public from the scourge of us evil bloggers. The more power that we, as bloggers, receive, the less money that traditional media outlets and PR companies will get. They will fight us tooth and nail over that, and I'm not the type to take their shots without an answer.

I'm a big fan of your site as well, and have no intention of telling you to butt out. In fact, I will delete any comment from anyone doing that. So, while I do see your points, and am pretty much in agreement in a lot of ways, I'm hoping that this little explosion of collective frustration serves as a warning shot to the current powers that be. If they keep up the attacks there is a good chance that they will soon be the the powers that were.

Btw, I have the exact shameful situation with other blogs. I realized at the recent WBC that I talk to some folks on Twitter a lot, have even met them multiple times, but I just don't have time to read even a small number of other blogs most days. I feel guilty all of the time over it.

Glad you stopped by!

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

1WineDude — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 10:39:25 -0000

Folks - I love this blog, in fact it's one of the very few blogs to which I subscribe via RSS (in fact, I'm *ashamed* of how few blogs I follow), but this post and some of the subsequent comments have me scratching my head. It seems to me that the response to Steve's post is overly dramatic and that the discussion is degrading into an attack almost worthy of the Wine Spectator Forum (almost - it's not that bad yet).

I'm happy for people to tell me to butt out, but I really feel that I should comment and raise the concern that the potential debate is great, but is running the risk of getting lost in vitriol.

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Ryan Opaz — Sat, 01 Aug 2009 16:18:08 -0000

Well said. Thank you for taking the time to show what a joke the "Steve Heimoff blog against blogs" has become. When will we see some posts(if there have been I wouldn't know...quit reading him) that point to the great things that wine bloggers are doing?

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

WineWonkette — Sat, 01 Aug 2009 16:11:11 -0000

And we do like your ceramic coasters!

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Houstonwino — Sat, 01 Aug 2009 13:54:54 -0000

Indeed. Bravo.

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Houstonwino — Sat, 01 Aug 2009 13:53:52 -0000

Good points, Ashley. I think you may be on to something regarding the elitism. Note that the folks on the wrong side of this issue are the old-guard.

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Houstonwino — Sat, 01 Aug 2009 13:49:32 -0000

Tom, would you intentionally misquote another blogger to make an invalid point? If so, would you then neglect to provide a link so that readers could decide for themselves within the actual context instead of the one that you created? When called on it, would you create a fake identity and try to deflect criticism by mocking the people that called you on it?

That is what you are defending. Are you sure you want to go down that road?

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

randywatson — Sat, 01 Aug 2009 13:38:21 -0000

I don't care what Steve Heimoff says because I know that deep down he is still a wine whore... a dirty, dirty, wine whore :P

Cheers!

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Houstonwino — Sat, 01 Aug 2009 13:38:03 -0000

Very well said, Tish. There is a lot more to being a blogger than writing on the Web. Someone who not only refuses to acknowledge that fact, but then breaks major rules of both blogging and journalism should not attempt to lecture the rest of us. Mr. Heimoff needs to learn that lesson, and it appears that perhaps Mr. Wark might needs a refresher course.

Re: Beware of Wine Bloggers!

Tish — Sat, 01 Aug 2009 12:34:42 -0000

Tom, anyone reading this knows you are a thoughtful straightshooter when it comes to all things wine industry, As well as a professional who respects Steve in both the context of print and blogging. But you are cutting slack here in a dangerous way.

YES, as you say: "There's nothing wrong with asking and urging and cajoling peers to do a great job. In my view what you see Steve doing is trying to motivate and advocate on behalf of the wine blogosphere probably because he's intensely aware of it's enormous potential."

Your error here is in not recognizing that the example Steve used -- a blog post about Lodi -- was a horrible example. He misquoted the blogger (re Lodi vs Napa/Sonoma); he mischaracterized the post (as hilling, when it was nothing but a transparent alert that reviews of Lodi would ensue); and worst of all, implied (with his infamous broad brush stroke that he ludicrously claims does not exist) that thiswas a perfect example of "when blogs go bad." In fact, it was a terrible example and the conclusion must be rejected in the strongest terms.

We all AGREE that there are good blogs and not-so-good blogs, and the better ones are prevailing and will prevail. But as a blogging community we should not sit back and let a self-declared maven of print and blogging use thoroughly tactics when blogging that he himself would never use in print -- and, I would stress, good bloggers never do. That was the real sin here, and I hope it gets noticed far and wide.

So yes, let's mind the "advice" from Steve's misbegotten example (don't shill), and let's all be more conscious of our "craft." In the process, let's avoid bending the truth to make a point. In vino veritas; ditto blogging.